Ben Shapiro: Politics, Kanye, Trump, Biden, Hitler, Extremism, and War | Lex Fridman Podcast #336

On the nature of evil and human psychology:

• Shapiro argues the "great lie" is believing evil people are a distinct class apart; he asserts that recognizing evil lies within every human heart is the best protection against it.
• He references a thought experiment by Princeton philosopher Robert George: when asked if they would have been abolitionists in 1861 Alabama, almost everyone raises their hand, yet history suggests few actually would have.
• He advises individuals to constantly question, "Am I participating in evil?" to avoid the self-deception that allows one to support truly frightening figures to stop a perceived greater evil.
• Shapiro notes that evil rarely presents itself clearly (like a villain in a black uniform) and that people often fail to recognize their own participation in wrongdoing until it is too late.
• He states that very few people in history are mentally strong enough to switch sides when they realize they are on the "wrong side of history."
• He maintains a "Musser" (repentance) approach to self-improvement, explicitly listing "dumb things" he has never said or previously said to demonstrate his willingness to correct errors.

On Ye (Kanye West) and Anti-Semitism:

• Shapiro characterizes Ye's recent anti-Semitic comments as stemming from a combination of bipolar mania and textbook bigotry (specifically the logical fallacy of jumping from an individual grievance to a generalization about a group).
• He identifies Ye's rhetoric as aligning with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, noting that even if Ye is an anti-Semite, his manic episodes likely drive him past the point of common sense.
• He distinguishes between statistical facts (e.g., higher-than-average Jewish representation in Hollywood or law) and racist tropes; he argues it is not racist to note demographics, but becomes racist when attributing negative traits to the entire group based on the actions of some members.
• Shapiro categorizes anti-Semitism into three distinct forms: ethnic (Nazi-style), religious (Jews as killers of Christ), and political (conspiracy theories about Jews controlling specific institutions).
• He argues that unlike other forms of racism, anti-Semitism is uniquely a conspiracy theory positing that "shadowy cadres" control global levers of power.
• Regarding Ye's comparison of the Holocaust to the ~900,000 annual abortions in the US:
  • As a pro-life advocate, Shapiro finds the comparison philosophically consistent, viewing the slaughter of the unborn as a tragedy on par with the Holocaust in scale and dehumanization.
  • He acknowledges the outside perspective that the visceral nature of the Holocaust (shoving humans into gas chambers) differs from the context of abortion.

On History, Politics, and Democracy:

• Shapiro explains that Hitler did not take power through a back door; the Weimar Republic had already centralized power and collapsed, making it inevitable that a "bad" actor would assume control once the radicals succeeded in pushing moderate parties into alliances to stop communists.
• He highlights Franz von Papen, a Catholic Democrat who believed he could use Hitler as a "buffoon" to stop communists; Papen was proven wrong when Hitler quickly killed Papen's allies.
• He warns against the modern political language that labels all enemies as "enemies of democracy," arguing this polarization makes it easy to support terrible figures to stop perceived worse ones.
• Shapiro argues that the Hunter Biden laptop story is a "big deal" not necessarily because of the content (which remains unverified), but because the coordinated media blackout interrupted the story's natural lifecycle, preventing public discourse and raising questions about information control.
• He contends that the human brain is wired to find patterns and conspiracy theories; in politics, assuming stupidity (e.g., Trump keeping classified docs because he liked them) is often more accurate than assuming complex, hidden plans.
• On the war in Ukraine, Shapiro argues the West made a fatal error by offering Ukraine NATO aspirations without guarantees, which enraged Russia without providing security.
• He suggests the "best case" (total Ukrainian victory including Crimea) is unlikely and risky, potentially leading to Putin using tactical nuclear weapons or regime collapse.
• He proposes a pragmatic "off-ramp" where Ukraine might cede Crimea/Luhansk in exchange for a formal Western defense guarantee against future invasion, a move requiring political courage from Biden rather than Zelensky.

On Free Speech, Twitter, and Elon Musk:

• Shapiro supports Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter, viewing it as necessary to break the "social media oligarchy" that emerged post-2017 to suppress dissent and define "misinformation" broadly.
• He argues that platforms like Twitter should be neutral town squares, not editorial entities, and that banning users (e.g., Donald Trump, Alex Jones) amounts to "unpersoning" them, which is incompatible with American civil liberties unless a criminal statute is violated.
• He believes the solution to bad speech is more speech and better speech, not censorship, noting that the "Overton window" was artificially narrowed by legacy media and tech giants.
• He criticizes the shift from "disinformation" (foreign, intentional falsehoods) to "misinformation" (often subjective, domestic out-of-context claims) as a tool for censorship.
• Shapiro notes that he personally deletes many tweets he finds too snarky to maintain integrity, though he maintains that mocking the President is necessary for a free society.

On Personal Psychology and Mental Health:

• Shapiro manages online abuse by physically removing the Twitter app from his phone and requiring him to use a desktop computer, creating friction that prevents constant checking.
• He relies on a tight-knit circle of family and friends (particularly his wife) who provide honest critiques and prevent him from being isolated by sycophants or online haters.
• He admits to losing his cool during a BBC interview with Andrew Neil, attributing it to fatigue, a lack of research on the host, and a misunderstanding of the adversarial nature of British interviewing styles.
• He states that he spends an "inordinate amount of time reflecting" on whether he is doing the right thing, acknowledging that while he may not always succeed, the self-examination is mandatory for a morally decent person.

On Philosophy, Religion, and Society:

• Shapiro proposes "Role Ethics" (or Role Theory), suggesting meaning is derived from fulfilling specific life roles (father, husband, citizen, creator) rather than abstract virtue or deontological rules.
• He views liberty as an instrumental good (useful for achieving specific ends like flourishing) rather than an intrinsic end in itself.
• On the question of God, Shapiro defines God as the "cause of all things" and the underlying logic of the universe, arguing that a life of struggling with God is the core of the human condition (referencing the Hebrew meaning of Israel).
• He addresses the problem of evil by citing the "Simsun" concept: God withdraws to allow space for free will, which necessitates the existence of evil.
• Shapiro distinguishes between love (for immediate family and community) and respect (for strangers and broader groups), arguing that universal "love" for strangers is often unrealistic and that respect is a more viable foundation for a diverse society.
• He rejects "universalism" (both liberal and communist) as a failure-prone utopian project, arguing instead for tribes based on shared ideas rather than physical characteristics.
• He believes a society can be built on the principle that humans are naturally good but require institutions to channel that goodness; without institutions, tribalism and violence prevail.
• On climate change, Shapiro asserts that humanity is excellent at adaptation but terrible at mitigation; he argues for investing in adaptation technologies (nuclear energy, geoengineering, seawalls) rather than unworkable global mitigation pacts like the Green New Deal.
• He suggests that the fear-mongering regarding climate change has eroded trust in institutions more than the actual threat, citing the failure of pandemic protocols as a cautionary tale.

Advice to Young People:

• Shapiro advises young men to find meaning through forming connections, getting a job, getting married, having a family, and becoming useful members of their local community.
• He strongly recommends delaying social media usage until age 26, when the brain is fully developed, to avoid permanently engraving immature, "stupid" thoughts on the internet.
• He encourages reading books (specifically history, economics, and philosophy) to build a foundation for understanding complex world events rather than reacting to daily news cycles.
• He advises engaging in local community building rather than seeking global solutions, arguing that political solutions must flow bottom-up from the local level.
• He credits his mentor Andrew Breitbart with the lesson of engaging with everyone and taking joy in one's mission, while cautioning against the toxicity of Twitter that eventually affected Breitbart.

On Controversial Figures:

• Donald Trump: Shapiro praises Trump for his willingness to break establishment norms (e.g., the Abraham Accords) but criticizes his lack of filters and inability to distinguish between personal grievances and statecraft.
• Joe Biden: Shapiro views Biden as a sympathetic father but criticizes his radicalism (e.g., the Independence Hall speech, "Mega Republicans" label) and lack of genuine unifying intent.
• Ilhan Omar: Shapiro argues Omar is anti-Semitic because she attacks the existence of the Jewish state (Zionism) in a way she does not apply to other nations, and she promotes conspiracy theories about American foreign policy.
• Candace Owens: Shapiro respects Owens for saying "audacious things" but criticizes her initial failure to condemn Ye's anti-Semitism, arguing friends should call out hateful behavior privately and publicly.

On Debate and Discourse:

• Shapiro asserts that he does not "destroy" opponents in debates but rather exposes their lack of preparation or logic; he claims most viral clips are edited from unprepared opponents who treat discussion as performance art.
• He distinguishes between "debate" (structured argument) and "discussion" (exploring ideas), noting that he tailors his approach to the opponent's intent.
• He recommends listening to opposing viewpoints (e.g., Pod Save America) to avoid echo chambers, a practice he says is rarely reciprocal on the left.
• He believes that human connection and friendship are prerequisites for effective debate, noting the sadness of public friendships breaking over issues like COVID-19.