Dec 22, 2022, 2:39 PM ETInterview

Bhaskar Sunkara: Socialism and Communism | Lex Fridman Podcast #349

Primary Definition: Bhaskar Sankara defines socialism as guaranteeing core necessities (food, housing, education) to all by virtue of birth to allow individuals to reach their potential.
Extension of Democracy: Democratic socialism seeks to extend democratic principles from the political sphere into economic and social realms, specifically questioning the autocratic nature of capitalist workplaces.
Intrinsic Value: The philosophical core rests on the belief that all humans possess intrinsic value, and individual unique talents require social guarantees to flourish.
Freedom Trade-off: Sankara reframes the liberty vs. equality debate as a choice between "freedom and freedom": prioritizing the autonomy of the entrepreneur/capitalist versus the autonomy and time for ordinary workers.
Rejection of "Year Zero": The vision involves a gradual, democratic evolution rather than a sudden revolution, maintaining market mechanisms and avoiding authoritarianism.

Soviet Union Analysis: The USSR initially succeeded in stabilizing the economy and rapidly industrializing through the New Economic Program and Five-Year Plans, which eventually allowed it to withstand the Nazi invasion.
Stalin's Failures: Forced collectivization led to famine and millions of deaths; industrialization skewed the economy toward heavy industry, neglecting light industry and consumer goods, causing the economy to lag behind the West by the 1970s.
Roots of Authoritarianism: Sankara attributes Soviet authoritarianism to the lack of a pre-existing democratic tradition, the isolation of the Bolsheviks, and the inability to return power after the Civil War, rather than an inherent flaw in all socialist thought.
China Comparison: Maoist China achieved significant improvements in basic education, healthcare, and women's rights, but failed in agricultural policy (Great Leap Forward) and remains an authoritarian nationalist state, not a socialist one in the democratic sense.
Necessity of Democracy: Sankara argues that without political democracy and civil rights, socialist movements inevitably devolve into tyranny, as seen in the Soviet collapse when dissent outlets were introduced.

Worker Control: The vision includes worker-owned cooperatives and firms where employees elect management, aiming to eliminate the capitalist class's power to withhold investment.
Market Mechanisms: Sankara advocates for a mixed economy where markets are harnessed and regulated rather than abolished, allowing for competition and efficiency within a worker-controlled framework.
Centralized Wage Bargaining: Citing Scandinavian models, Sankara supports sectoral wage bargaining (e.g., setting wages at the level of the second-most efficient firm) to force high-efficiency firms to reinvest surplus while forcing inefficient firms to adapt or close.
Public Banking: Investment decisions in a socialist society would be guided by publicly owned banks operating with rational profit motives, ensuring capital flows to productive sectors without cronyism.
Decommodification: Certain sectors like healthcare, transit, and natural monopolies should be removed from the market and handled through central planning to ensure universal access.

Immediate Reforms: Key demands include Medicare for All, tuition-free college (paired with free vocational training), and a reduction of the standard work week (e.g., to 35 hours) to spread employment.
Healthcare Cost Logic: Sankara argues universal healthcare could be cost-neutral due to the elimination of administrative waste and the increased bargaining power of a single-payer system against pharmaceutical companies.
Education Strategy: Prioritizing K-12 investment and universal pre-K to equalize opportunity before expanding to higher education, ensuring trade schools are equally funded and free.
Union Role: Unions are essential for collective bargaining to prevent a "race to the bottom," ensuring firms remain viable while securing fair wages and working conditions.
Corruption Control: Anti-corruption relies on independent courts, meritocratic civil services, and the removal of the state's monopoly over resource allocation, rather than relying solely on cultural shifts.

Bernie Sanders: Sankara praises Sanders for his clarity, moral force, and ability to communicate socialist principles to ordinary people, though he notes Sanders is a pragmatic politician rather than a theoretical revolutionary.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC): While admiring her energy, Sankara critiques her struggle to pivot from a cultural figure to a unifying national political figure, arguing she must simplify her rhetoric and focus on core economic issues to win broader support.
The "Bennie Bro" Label: Sankara accepts the label "Bernie Bro" as a reclaimed term, noting the demographic reality that Sanders' base includes many young women and that the term was used by liberals to dismiss his candidacy.
2024 Outlook: Sankara expresses skepticism about AOC running for president soon, predicting Joe Biden will likely be the nominee, and views Donald Trump as a unique, chaotic force that may inadvertently drive Democratic turnout.
Critique of Liberal Media: Sankara argues that liberal media dismisses socialist candidates due to ideological snobbery and a preference for "polite" establishment figures, fueling anti-establishment resentment.

Leisure vs. Productivity: Sankara rejects the idea that social safety nets lead to laziness, arguing that leisure (including civic engagement and family time) is essential for human flourishing and that capitalism often coerces labor unnecessarily.
Inequality and Meritocracy: He contends that current inequality is not purely meritocratic, as "accidents of birth" (geography, family wealth) heavily dictate life outcomes; true meritocracy requires leveling the playing field first.
Free Speech: Sankara identifies as a free speech absolutist (with the exception of direct incitement to violence), rejecting the notion that socialism requires censorship or the policing of language.
War and Imperialism: He views war as a product of capitalist competition and nationalism, advocating for a long-term vision of a world without standing armies or nation-state rivalries, though acknowledging armed struggle for national liberation is sometimes necessary.
Marxist Theory: While a Marxist, Sankara rejects "historical inevitability," arguing socialism must be actively organized and achieved through democratic persuasion rather than waiting for systemic collapse.

Background: Sankara's socialism is rooted in observing how state institutions (public schools, libraries) enabled his own mobility compared to his illiterate grandmother and less privileged siblings.
Jacobin Magazine: He founded Jacobin to create a platform for socialist debate, acknowledging the challenge of balancing ideological purity with diverse perspectives and avoiding audience capture.
Future of AI and Planning: Sankara is skeptical that AI can solve the "incentive problem" of economic planning, arguing that human debate, democratic deliberation, and the "meaning of life" require human agency.
Meaning of Life: He defines meaning through posterity, leaving the world less suffering and oppression than found it, and building a legacy of relationships and social contribution.