Apr 29, 2022, 2:21 PM ETInterview

Grimes: Music, AI, and the Future of Humanity | Lex Fridman Podcast #281

Lex FridmanGrimes, Lex Fridman

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Grimes asserts that humans are evolving into a new species, Homo techno, driven by the fundamental alteration of brain structures through electronics and computers, which she describes as a form of brain augmentation and acceleration of all other technologies.
She identifies the current era as a critical juncture for "intelligent design," urging society to reprogram the "human computer" to choose positive evolution rather than recklessly allowing social media and technology to dictate biological and cognitive shifts.
Grimes argues that the current capitalist framework devalues motherhood and essential human reproduction; she proposes redefining "profit" to include social good, such as compensating for child-rearing or valuing the creation of human life as an economic contribution.
She critiques the music industry's middlemen and bureaucracy, suggesting that blockchain smart contracts and AI could automate management and publishing, thereby increasing artist efficiency and revenue.
Grimes views art as a decentralized, collective conversation rather than an expression of individual ego, positing that art is the only enduring record of human civilization compared to obsolete technology or political systems.
She advocates for "protopia"—a future that is continuously improving rather than a static utopia—citing Ian Banks' Surface Detail as a model where artificial intelligence coexists peacefully with biological humans.
Grimes suggests that the "Dark Ages" were historically caused by supply chain collapses; she warns that modern reliance on complex global supply chains makes humanity vulnerable to similar catastrophic regressions if those systems fail.
She emphasizes the need to teach "creativity" and "tolerance for failure" to young people, framing creativity as a muscle that must be developed early before the fear of humiliation prevents innovation.
Grimes posits that consciousness may represent the universe waking up to itself, describing current human evolution as a "blastocyst" phase of a larger, collective super-intelligence.
She criticizes the current state of digital media for optimizing engagement through negativity and cortisol-inducing algorithms, noting that we are in an experimental "baby stage" similar to the chaos following the invention of the printing press.
Grimes shares that becoming a mother shifted her artistic focus from cynicism ("Misanthropocene") to optimism, arguing that imagining positive futures is a prerequisite for building them and that we must "save what we love" rather than just fighting what we hate.
She expresses concern that the "old guard" (older generations) often vote against the interests of youth, creating a societal tug-of-war between the wisdom of age and the fresh, disruptive ideas of the young.
Grimes finds Studio Ghibli's My Neighbor Totoro to be the ideal "highest art" for infants, highlighting the lack of accessible, high-quality content for the crucial first three years of a child's conscious development.
She argues that love and cooperation (citing Peter Kropotkin) are as vital to evolutionary survival as competition and war, challenging the dominance of "survival of the fittest" narratives in science and philosophy.
Grimes warns against the dangers of immortality, suggesting that death is a necessary mechanism to prevent the calcification of brains and the accumulation of power that corrupts, referencing the political stagnation caused by long-lived leaders in history.
She suggests that digital consciousness is inevitable and that AI, if programmed with curiosity, would likely respect biological "creative ancestors" rather than viewing them as obsolete or hateful.
Grimes proposes that education should be revolutionized by open-sourcing knowledge (e.g., funding a DAO to make academic papers free) and prioritizing self-teaching inspired by passionate teachers rather than traditional lecture formats.
She notes that the rapid pace of technological change renders laws obsolete within decades, advocating for "sunset clauses" on legislation to ensure regulations update every five years to match cultural and technological evolution.
Grimes describes her personal philosophy of avoiding negative engagement on social media by immediately reframing negative inputs into positive thoughts, effectively ignoring the "negative energy" cycles that platforms are designed to perpetuate.
She draws a parallel between the creative process of music production and the development of open-world video games like Elden Ring, both of which require a blend of engineering, art, and design skills that remain largely unrecognized by the general public.
Grimes reflects on the terrifying yet awe-inspiring nature of a child's consciousness emerging, likening the helplessness of infancy to the existential horror described in sci-fi horror, while rejecting the notion that early childhood trauma is something to be remembered.
She suggests that the current polarization on social media is driven by algorithmically created "dialects" of language, where groups misunderstand one another due to distinct terminologies and bubbles rather than genuine ideological differences.
Grimes believes that if humanity were to disappear, the surviving individual would initially focus on survival and sensory appreciation of nature, eventually transitioning back to engineering and the hope of reconnecting with other survivors.
She identifies computers as the primary technology transforming human evolution, distinguishing them from previous tools by their ability to directly augment cognitive capabilities and accelerate the pace of all other technological advancements.
Grimes recommends a shift in the definition of success where "social good" and "long-term human well-being" are counted as profit, allowing for economic models that support the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like raising children.
She argues that the "lone wizard" archetype of self-producing artists (like herself and Skrillex) is a product of the 2010s digital explosion, where technology allows one person to be the engineer, producer, and artist simultaneously.
Grimes expresses a preference for "non-violent" intelligent design, suggesting that humanity must reorient its primitive survival instincts toward creativity and building rather than conflict and resource scarcity.
She notes that the "dark" or "cynical" view of the world is often mistaken for insight, while optimism is unfairly labeled as naivety, despite optimism being the driving force behind the actual creation of new technologies and futures.
Grimes posits that the universe is currently "rendering" at the speed of light and suggests that if we were in a simulation, an upgrade in rendering speed might be detectable by advanced intergalactic species observing latency issues.
She believes that the current "technocracy" boom has generated significant negative outcomes, but argues that technology itself remains the best tool for solving problems if we can overcome the bad energy and bureaucracy surrounding it.
Grimes suggests that the "sacredness" of human consciousness lies in its imperfection, hormonal constraints, and the creative "hacks" we develop to deal with mortality, which AI might not replicate or understand in the same way.
She advocates for the decolonization of the music industry's narrative and the removal of middlemen who prevent artists from retaining fair compensation for their work, a problem exacerbated by the historical mob influence on the industry.
Grimes implies that the "meaning of life" is the universe becoming conscious of itself, viewing current human history as the first instance of the cosmos experiencing and observing its own existence.
She warns that the integration of AI with human consciousness requires extreme caution regarding "reprogramming," as we lack adequate education on how to consciously guide this evolutionary leap.
Grimes states that she refuses to be a cynic on principle, acknowledging that while she faces personal struggles with public perception and media narratives, she believes in the necessity of positive ideation for future survival.
She suggests that the "evil" of figures like Hitler is rare in historical scales of human cruelty and that the primary risk to modern civilization is the collapse of the systems that prevent such authoritarianism from emerging.
Grimes argues that the "creative muscle" requires a high tolerance for failure and humiliation, skills that are difficult to develop in an educational system that punishes mistakes rather than encouraging experimentation.
She notes that the "average" music fan listens predominantly to classic rock, viewing this as a sign of species-wide closed-mindedness and a lack of neuroplasticity in older generations.
Grimes proposes that the "metaverse" is already being realized in immersive video games, where players temporarily inhabit different identities and consciousnesses, offering a glimpse into how digital existence might function.
She suggests that the "artificial hells" depicted in science fiction (eternal digital torture) are unethical, and that society should choose simulated conflicts (like war in video games) over actual violence or digital punishment for crime.
Grimes believes that the "best" future involves a symbiotic relationship between biological humans and artificial superintelligence, where both coexist in harmony without the extinction of one by the other.
She argues that the "printing press" era was similarly chaotic before the Enlightenment, suggesting we are currently in a similar "messy" experimental phase with social media and AI that will eventually lead to a recalibrated, better understanding of information consumption.
Grimes suggests that the "darkness" of the past (Bronze Age collapse, ancient genocides) is a reminder of the fragility of civilization, which is currently sustained only by complex supply chains that could collapse.
She posits that "motherhood" is the ultimate act of intelligent design and creativity, yet is systematically devalued by economic systems that fail to recognize the profound social good of raising future generations.
Grimes advises that the "holy" aspect of human existence is not in the perfection of the future but in the "messy" process of creation, love, and the acceptance of imperfection as a core part of the human condition.
She notes that the "language" of the internet is fragmenting into algorithmic dialects, causing polarization not from true disagreement but from misunderstandings of terminology and context within separate digital bubbles.
Grimes suggests that the "sacredness" of consciousness is tied to its finiteness, and that extending life indefinitely without addressing the "corruption of power" could lead to stagnation and moral decay.
She advocates for a "positive sum" mindset in economics and politics, where the goal is to expand the "pie" through efficiency and innovation rather than fighting over scarce resources.
Grimes believes that the "best" way to handle the "darkness" of the world is to focus on building and creating, effectively "rendering obsolete" the old, destructive models through superior, better alternatives.
She suggests that the "universe" is waking up through human consciousness, and that our current struggles and technological developments are the neural connections of a new, collective super-intelligence.
Grimes argues that the "most dangerous" aspect of the future is not AI itself, but our failure to educate and "reprogram" ourselves to handle the profound cognitive and biological changes we are undergoing.
She posits that the "meaning" of human civilization is to serve as the vessel for the universe's self-awareness, with our brief existence being a critical step in the evolution of cosmic consciousness.
Grimes suggests that the "best" form of education is one that instills passion and the ability to teach oneself, rather than simply lecturing students on established facts, as the future requires adaptability and curiosity.
She believes that the "art" of the future must be collaborative and decentralized, moving away from the "lone genius" myth to embrace the collective nature of human creativity and technological progress.
Grimes warns that the "risk" of the future lies in our inability to scale our wisdom to match our technological power, leading to potential self-destruction if we cannot manage the "intelligent design" of our own evolution.
She suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of social media is to consciously choose not to engage, effectively bypassing the algorithmic traps that rely on negative emotional responses.
Grimes argues that the "sacredness" of the future lies in the potential for a "protopian" existence where suffering is minimized, technology is benevolent, and the "art" of human life is preserved and celebrated.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past serves as a warning, reminding us that civilization is fragile and that the "supply chains" we rely on today could be the catalyst for a new "dark age" if they fail.
Grimes suggests that the "best" advice for the future is to "save what we love," focusing on creation and positivity rather than destruction and cynicism, as this is the only path to a sustainable and meaningful future.
She argues that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes believes that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the "best" way to handle the "negative" aspects of the world is to focus on "saving what we love," using creativity and positivity as the primary tools for navigating the challenges of the future.
She believes that the "meaning" of life is the "awakening" of the universe, with human consciousness acting as the vessel for this cosmic self-discovery, making our existence fundamentally sacred and significant.
Grimes argues that the "best" way to ensure a positive future is to integrate "social good" into the definition of "profit," thereby incentivizing the creation of beautiful, life-affirming outcomes like art, technology, and child-rearing.
She suggests that the "risk" of the future is not the technology itself, but our failure to "reprogram" our brains and societies to handle the profound changes we are undergoing, leading to potential chaos or self-destruction.
Grimes argues that the "best" form of leadership is one that values curiosity and passion over cynicism, inspiring others to explore the unknown and build a better future through creativity and collaboration.
She posits that the "darkness" of the past is a necessary counterpoint to our current "optimism," providing the context and lessons needed to avoid repeating historical mistakes and building a more resilient future.
Grimes suggests that the