All-In Podcast - All-In Podcast

Dylan Field, welcome to the All In interview. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We are here in beautiful Napa, Yonville, California. Yeah, you're three drinks in. We're a couple drinks in and we decided to go on camera. Yeah, why not? Why not? Well, what are you doing here? As your wealth grows, have you noticed how much more complex things get? 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It's good. We can fast forward. But I want to back up. You're the CEO of Figma, publicly traded. Maybe you can just give the quick elevator pitch on Figma. And when did you start the business? Yeah, we started Figma back in August 2012. And the quick pitch is this is where we want to make it so that the best teams in the world can design and create and build the world's best software. We're also used for all sorts of stuff. So marketing, advertising, slides, whiteboarding, diagramming, you name it. If it's visual at all, someone's probably doing a Figma, even if it's not meant for that. People call it a design software. Is that a fair characterization or does it not capture the full spectrum of what the service is? No, I think that design is really our center and our core. and like when i'm in a product review and talking with the team we talk about designers we talk about what they want uh design is also a term that's like so interesting because there's like 100 definitions of design right i i think about a lot of a lot about the definition of like it's maybe creativity meets problem solving um but there's Like so many others you can find and then also design can refer to everything from interior to industrial to product design to brand design and so on and so people think about a lot of things they think about design just to get caught up on the history of the business you started in 2012 you raised some venture money the business takes off you're selling enterprise software you're doing really well and then adobe offers to buy the business for 20 billion dollars uh yeah correct quite the fast forward what year was that uh it was a few years back now right i'm skipping through literally building the business like yeah you're like uh you know 10 11 years in but the um no i mean we uh have always respected adobe still do and i mean a generational incredible company that like started everything from printing to making photoshop what it is and like the entire graphic design revolution by the way i was on adobe photoshop since 1990 i did graphic wow so you're pre-layers actually you and i haven't talked about your pre-layers yes so i did graphic design pre-layers as a kid on computers and i did it as like a service for like people in the neighborhood and small businesses and stuff so cool so how'd you get access to it i was like i at my school and then i had well i was on a macintosh i got the first mac original 1984 and um i was always fascinated with graphic design it was like something i love doing as a literally a hobby you and actually never talked about this and then i used like bryce 3d and all these early 3d tools and then when kai's power tools came out kai power tools is really cool it reinvented adobe photoshop and for me it was like this incredible like expansion of creative potential and what you could do with photoshop so i've been a big photoshop fan since the earliest days and a big user as a personal hobby and like i made money on the side doing graphic design and stuff that's awesome as a kid yeah yeah i mean photoshop of course is like a product that is very mature and maybe beyond mature too in that it has so many different parts of it that have been added over the years uh which i think is the nature of a lot of software uh it gets more bloated over time if you're not careful but there's just so much that's possible with it and uh you know adobe as a company has been very inventive so i've always had respect since i was a kid too totally and it felt like it was a time when you know we could join and not be totally absorbed uh if we were smaller i felt like maybe we would just kind of dissipate and yeah we we signed the agreement we said yes and then uh various world governments decided that they didn't like it right and uh like antitrust got involved and they blocked the deal yeah i mean it's antitrust is kind of like a broad way to refer to it but you have the united states european union cma and you know it's very different vibe and a few years ago than today adobe would be taking out a big competitor they said a lot of things uh but the i think most important part for us was that we just kept putting our foot in the gas i mean yeah i thought it would be like sort of we would just go right through and as soon as a month or two and it was clear that was not the case yeah it kind of became okay like we got to like really power through as organization here and ship and build like the next stuff. Because if we don't power through and keep our foot on the gas, you know, what's another side? We don't know what's on the other side. We got to make sure everything's fine no matter what. So this is 2023. How many employees did you have? I want to say it was about 1,100, 1,200 after triple check. Okay. So when I heard this story, I was fascinated by, and I think I saw you in 2024, March of 24. I don't know if you remember, I mentioned this to you. But for me, the story of telling 1,200 employees of a startup, we have one of the most incredible exits in history, $20 billion exit of this company, and it's not going to happen. What was the all hands like when you get in front of everyone and you tell everyone, guys, this isn't going to happen? And how do you get everyone to realign on building a business and continuing forward when it feels like the floor for some people may have felt like the floor fell out from under them well i think you have to remember the length of the regulatory review which definitely needs to be fixed somehow because it's you know if you're in a situation where it's actually anti-competitive which i don't i still don't believe the adobe thing was for what it's worth a lot of people you know on the internet probably would say it is uh like or at least they did back then but i thought their arguments were poor and they were fighting past battles not looking at the future and what this all would become uh but the um and i say that not because i'm not like i'm stoked to be independent too i'm so if you're running figma that was the plan for adobe was just run figma uh either way uh running figna i'm happy independently we do move fast i'm glad i'm grateful for that but uh you go back to your question it's like we had 16 months of regulatory review 16 months a regulatory review for any company is punishing and uh in an actual anti-competitive situation that could be like very destructive for one of the parties right or both um and i think roomba is a great example actually right roomba uh was going to be acquired small deal uh yeah it wasn't like a crazy deal yeah but they want to punish amazon and so they did not let it go through and because of that rimba went bankrupt and the entire market at the time basically went to china uh so from the united states standpoint it made no sense right anyway i go on tangent but i do think it's an important point there's some policy stuff here that's like when you go for the ideals idealism it doesn't always practically like help america but it's also an important point which is almost all markets now are more expansive than they have been historically and nearly anything that looks like oh it's the market that's not actually the market the market is ai turns yeah i mean exactly the market has this massive market and this deal is one percent and point two percent of the market it's like do you define the market looking back at the history which is like the only logical way you do it as a regulator or do you do it as a technologist looking forward uh and that could be very different in terms of how you think about markets sizes but um any case the all hands uh it was actually the first day of a winter break which is pretty funny so we had told everybody okay uh you know enjoy the holidays we actually have way less traffic during the holidays because we're a work product and that was a friday and then realize sort of over the weekend, okay, this is going to come to a conclusion. And on Monday morning, send a message to everybody saying, Hey, all hands at noon, and dial in if you like, and here's what's going on. And here's like the full sort of details. And so first of all, so much the company showed up. That was awesome just to see the turnout. You know, first day of break really and secondly i'd say just like the mood was relief because it wasn't about relief of not adobe it was relief of not having ambiguity to have ambiguity that long is really intense and people have to kind of have two worlds in their head they're not exactly sure the future holds so that was the immediate mood it was just kind of like lighter and then from there uh yeah i think that the question you asked is right how do you make sure everyone's all in and the way that we did it was we said look i just kind of put a video out into the company slack and email everybody and said hey if you're tired after working really hard if youre someone who joined during this period thinking you're going to go work at adobe and actually the startup thing is not for you, please know we're going to be working very hard, hustling hard. And no shame. We're still on good terms. If you want to leave, here is a few months pay. And you're welcome to just let us know. We'll make it super easy. And from there, six months before you can reapply. That's the only condition. After six months, you can re-apply and we'll re-interview you. And it was a pretty small percentage of people that took us up on that. But overall, it was healthy. And some people actually ended up doing total career pivots, like, in wild ways, went on different life paths. Like, I think it's healthy for everyone. You continue to build the business. It grows. You go public. And I just want to fast forward to earlier this year. you guys announced a partnership with Anthropic Claude Design not quite we had been working with Anthropic as a partner and Anthropic separately announced Claude design yes oh sorry yeah that's right but you had a connector with them that you announced earlier in the year yeah we have an MCP we are partnered with many companies then they announced Clade design was that surprising to you when they did that and how worried were you when they came out with Claude designed relative to what you guys were offering because the market looked at it and said oh my god figma's dead claude is going to crush figma i mean the nature of online discourse right now is uh we're so back it's so over and it's just a cycle right i mean how many times have you been all over yeah in the last like month yes probably you know a bunch of times i don't even know about yes and everyone i think i was kind of used to that at that point right because you know you when when you kind of die uh so many times and then you're actually like not dead right you kindof realize at some point maybe maybe this is like not the truth social media is actually like not reality but um yeah i i uh was overall surprised at the way that kind of communication happened. I think that, you know, look, everybody wants to do good, usually. I mean, there's some exceptions, but for the most part, that's what I assume for people. They want to win, they want to do good. And I thinkthat organizations scaling really fast, anthropic, like, are there any examples of organizations scaling that fast ever? Never. It can get very confused and mixed up internally and due to that weird stuff can happen and i think that it's just the case that yeah we were on the other side of kind of like a weird bout of uh communication there and did it affect your business oh no uh like not that not any degree that was like you know significant because i read your quarterly report after that announcement you guys grew 48 year over year and the business basically accelerated its growth so i'm looking at that and i'm you know this was when everyone had the sas apocalypse thesis in general and i was a big subscriber to sas apocalypse but i do think that there's a bunch of ways to distinguish sas companies one of which i think is founder-led and i think that There's user experience that matters a lot embedded user experience and the ability to kind of build from there especially if you know how to use ai to accelerate and reinvent your business as a founder particularly but your business accelerated yep um no it's been continue to do well and i think that look the hard part about model companies and product is like what is the product is it the model is it a model is that the ui on top is it some hybrid of both if it's a hybrid how is it weighted and uh in any case you're talking about like in Anthropic and OpenAI and Gemini. Yeah, I mean, like whether it's a harness for coding or it's product like Cloud Design, which you just mentioned, I think it's easy to mistake model progress for product progress. Right. The reality is a tool like Figma, you know, has taken a very long time to build and a very Long Time to make sure that we get the workflows right for our users. And we still have work to do. Our users will tell you that. And we're always trying to make it better. So I think that it's sort of not surprising that it wasn't an instant hit or something when there's actually quite a lot of work on the just core user journey workflow side that you have to do to meet the needs of professionals. now they're uh they've made cloud design into a product that is is broad so it's trying to do a lot of things like you'll see like posters and stuff as well like graphic design scenarios i believe when you go to their home page and and like maybe they'll do well in some areas and on others like i'm not bullish or bearish on the product i think it's just like hard to make good design tools professionals yeah there's a lot of thing to design and yeah and also categories of design the feel of it is like an instrument you have to get the feel right you have mechanics right yeah and we've stressed every detail of that and have had a lot of feedback over the years about what people like and don't like it depends on where they're coming from it depends on uh their task and sort of like what they're trying to overall do and there's so many scenarios but overall uh you know i think that um there are more modes for software than are implied by the sasspocalypse and it's not like software as a category is binary good or bad there are plenty of other ways that you can make sure that you're able to sustain yourself long term and you have a growing business long term as a software company or app player company and part of it is yes if you're as specialized as possible on a target audience and you know your audience and you're building for them that is something that matters right uh and i think a great example this is cursor um cursor like by all means should not have grown the way they did you've got all these frontier labs that are chasing them with their own models before cursor had a model of any kind but yet cursor really obsessed over the user they saw our own corners They strategized, they made sure they were doing the right thing for the customer, and they've had an incredible success. Yeah. And I think it's amazing, and I think It's an example that will be repeated across many different types of companies. SaaS is not dead. Well, I think that it's not true that all SaaS companies are fine. Yeah. And it's also not true That all SaaS Companies are dead. Fair enough. I'm going all in. protecting nature is often labeled anti-growth the conservation fund disagrees they believe protecting land wildlife and outdoor access goes hand in hand with economic opportunity for 40 years they've moved with market speed to protect at-risk land while supporting local communities with 9 million acres protected across all 50 states the conservation fun is proving that they deliver lasting outcomes that benefit communities and nature. Learn more at conservationfund.org. In a world of AI, agentic AI, I have this capacity to prompt as a human and say, I want to make something that looks like, feels like, and does X. and this magical technology takes off and does it and i end up with a product sometimes the product is great sometimes the project sucks but it's improving the ability for these tools to do that historically i would have needed a product manager a designer a bunch of engineers to do the actual building of the product whether it's a software product or a hardware product. Increasingly though, it seems like AI is doing more and more of those tools. Can you just give me your view on the future of human creativity in this era, this future era that we're waltzing into, the singularity we're falling into? Where does human creativity play a role and where do the gaps still need to be filled for taking human creativity to the realization moment it's the case i think that uh we're lowering the floor with ai making it so that all of the production whether it's code or it's uh motion video design whatever you name it uh if it's digital you're lowering before to make it happen um everyone can be part of that and it's more democratized ironically and i i used to believe uh even a few years ago i said it our annual user conference config i said the ceiling will be raised by ai you'll be able to do greater things before that was wrong uh the ceiling has stayed the same ai is not raising the ceiling humans are raising the ceilings though uh the creatives the designers out there when they choose to focus, invest their time, and to be bold and try to do something that no one else has ever done before, that's when we see the ceiling raised. And at that point, it's a question of, do you care about being in the center of distribution? Do you care about like a mean or average result? Is that sufficient for your task? Or do you need something that shows that you care, that you took the time to actually like go make this thing do you need to go and be beyond what is the minimum bar and in the world of software design and product i mean we're seeing exponentially more software than ever before it's exactly what you predict the exponential continues you look at app store numbers the app store members are exactly that same exponential and we're seeing that the usage and utilization of apps flat so people are using just the same amount of apps but the amount of abs that you can get it's like bigger than ever and growing and i think it just speaks to okay there's a need to differentiate yourself if you're building any kind of software well how do you do that it's not code because anyone can create code now that's not the hard part anymore. So my view is design is the new code. It's the layer above. You have to make it so that your design is differentiated. And you have to have a point of view and a good brand in marketing. And the point of you, I think, is the part that is probably missed the most. That's the human part. It's not just the human parts. It is also the part humans are uncomfortable having. I think that folks are scared to say something that's not consensus. it's so true i mean this is what the greatest artists the greatest business leaders the greatest politicians have always demonstrated is the willingness to to be brave to say and do the things that no one else would say or do and that's what changes the world and i would also add comedians to the mix too comedians comedians are underappreciated i had tony hinchcliffe at our thing last year because he's like one of the few guys that is willing to say and do things nowadays in the cancel culture era but comedians often like speak truth in a way that people otherwise couldn't hear willing to say things and uh it's not about political correctness it's about do you have a message that can rise above the noise and do so in a sustained way because look at social media right now like every unique point of view everything interesting it gets diffused into like the ether of social media instantly and so unless you've got uh something that allows you to kind of keep generating content and a message that is really evergreen because it's so outside of the Overton window, you're not going to be able to actually break through and have any attention. And the attention economy is ruthless. Is this also what human creativity is? If you're Not doing something that's never been done before, youre not creating something you're mimicking something youre copying something you re xeroxing something but to do something new is to create and newness requires doing things that have never been done by definition by definition and therefore you are operating outside of this distribution of training it's not even about operating outside the mean of the distribution which is where you start if you're just prompting without any like any kind of advanced scaffolding around it but you're actually doing something that is breaking through and it's unique and i do think that will be rewarded by the market everyone's going to see it i think it's even rewarded by the attention market of organizations i'm already hearing from so many like oh i got another deck made by ai today totally and i don't even know if the person who made it i like don't know if they read it do they even know what's in their deck and at figma we actually made it so that uh it was just a simple thing but we said hey if you are uh using ai in your writing of any kind just put at the top written with ai very simple very easy to follow uh and you know people made jokes about internally but people do it and it makes it sothat we can all trust that when we see something we know that has been cared for enough that it's like worth your time to process and i uh i think that we're gonna see some bifurcation here around trust uh and one way to get trust is to do something with your hands the other point that's important is if you have a vision or if you Have a point of view in your head of how something should be designed or look aesthetically or from an experiential standpoint, I think it's great to start with building with AI. It gives you something to get past the blank page, blank canvas problem. You can then react to it and say, here are all the things I don't like. I'm going to go fix these things. I am going to change them up because it's really helpful to have a back and forth. But if you have your own vision and you're trusting ai to implement it you're doing it through the lens of ai and like ai has kind of like its own distribution the model fit by it yeah yeah and so you're not going to get exactly what you want now if you're able to do both and that's what we're trying to enable in figma make code of material on the canvas make it so that you can go start by building you can build to think if you like uh but also when you want to think and work with your hands you can do that too right and go back and forth rapidly right i remember the early days of photoshop just having been a user avid user from the early years people freaked out when layers happened and then they freaked out what all the filters came out and when kai's power tools came out and everyone's like what's the role of the photographer anymore it's like you're destroying the art of photography the creativity of photography but it unleashed a new era of creativity because now these new artists emerged that could use these filters and use these layering tools and capabilities to reimagine what's possible on a canvas. And it was basically a new toolkit. It doesn't mean that the old creatives mapped perfectly to the new creative system and tools, but there was an explosion in creativity and human potential that arose from this. And we pushed boundaries in all sorts of ways. It feels like we might be entering that era again i'm a big believer in that and i think that part of it is what i described about market dynamics in order to get attention or to get engagement or get people to care you have to do something new uh you haveto actually be daring and try things that are bold the resistance to change is real and there's a great thing you can google actually per your point look up the mailing list for when layers was introduced and it's like people going this is the worst thing ever uh and you can find it if you google it's like on a mailing list that's publicly available and you Can see all the reactions um but obviously it became the future and I think that uh there's also still photographers in the world who are doing incredible work but the bigger disruption if we're going to be real it was the camera phone uh that was what made it so that people stopped buying cameras that were dedicated to the task of photography because the best camera is the one that's on you and started treating photography in a different way with Instagram and their camera phone so it transformed for a lot of people and I can't tell you if it's better or worse as a result but there was change there's one view on human creativity that human creativity is basically connecting dots in the unconscious that you've had seen or experienced all of these things in your life or in your set of inputs sensory inputs and from those inputs you connect dots and then you extrapolate a forward view of things that hasn't perhaps been seen in the world before do you agree with that view on creativity and is it distinct from actually what ai does and again i want to go back to the uniqueness of the human in an ai era well i i think that um one thing that happens with humans is they're always seeking novelty like our reward function is different than like an ai's also our loss function like if i was to open this bottle of water and splash it all over you and you got bad at me like you bet i'm not gonna do that again but an ai like you know with rl you got like really tell it a bunch of times uh uh that no you don't do that um robot stop kicking me yeah well and maybe that'll change with architectures over time but like overall the brain is different uh than the current systems that we've made with ai and i i think that uh it's unknown we don't know much about neuroscience uh overall i'd love to get to the point where like we all know more about neuroscience but something is fundamentally different there when it comes to creativity. And I also think design is different than creativity. It's not just creativity. It's also problem solving, like I mentioned earlier. And the combination of the two is I just find it fascinating because you have a user, you're trying to solve their needs. You're trying to do so in a way that stands out as creative and it connects with them. And also like you have to connect to wider systems, the marketing brand, the culture the business problems uh and so on and and like holding all that in your head at different levels of abstraction while trying to like deliver a screen or a flow uh that like from a search space standpoint can be a combinatorial explosion is just pretty cool it's pretty fascinating i'm actually personally really excited about the idea of reinventing existing art form and media where ai can enable more dynamic generation where the creator steps up a level sets a bunch of parameters but doesn't actually necessarily render the final product but the final product sort of like in a video game is rendered on the fly with the user in front of it but the creator the creative team behind a video 게임 for example is building all of the objects they're building the storyline they're building the narrative flow and the realization of that is much more dynamic but i feel like it's going to find its way it's going to leach its way into many more totally different media we have products around that too like in figment design you can have now generative tools and shaders where you can do very much that or we have a product called weave and weave is basically a node-based system you can connect model outputs into uh other inputs and such and the whole idea is like it's not bad to generate with AI, but you need a way to craft that clay. You need a way to mold it. And with Weave, people do the most amazing video and photo work. And overall, just the outcomes that are achievable with it are incredible. So yeah, I think that if you've got the intention, if you actually care to do the work, you can always get to better results and people you know new model drops there's like this psychosis moment that people are in for a few days and it's like i think also aided by algo feeds totally the best results rise to the top everyone's likethis model is everything yeah and then a few years later it's it's okay okay i know the kind of like main tropes of the model um and you adapt fast like the novelty's gone it no longer is a thing that's that's kind of like rewarding you or firing off your dopamine system or whatever and instead you're like okay well yeah it always does that thing how do i move past it and that seems to be the continued loop we're in uh which is sort of fascinating because models keep getting so good when it comes to these formal domains math, cyber security, IQ points just stack and stack and stack. And then for creativity and for design, it's very incremental progress overall. Maybe that will change at some point. But I think the fact that these are non verifiable domains has something to do with it. And it's probably the factthat maybe that is the human role in the ai toolkit which is conceive create design and let the ai do more of the work but it gives you the ability to do much more work any art or media that you're particularly excited about or interested in that's kind of emerging right now you know i find it fascinating uh when people do sort of like new ai experiments for example uh it puts the media category um there was a designer artist type that made a webpage the other day uh and it was like a letter to figma actually so it caught my attention because i was you know getting the figma hit on the algo feed and every time you moved away from it uh and came back it got slightly more degraded and it Was basically a comment on attention i thought that was really cool oh cool um that was a piece of art i thought so it was web page yeah but like i thought that the technique and the way that they went about it was really neat and like not something that many others have done i've seen a few other things like that but overall i thought it was a very cool way to do it um it was also just a very well-written letter uh i like the letter too but i yeah i see stuff like this um and you know back in the day i remember um seeing people do like nft art with ai when nfts were a thing you know so there's like 2019 or something like that but the way they did it sometimes was uh really remarkable i mean holly herndon's work around uh taking her voice and making it so that her voice was something that people could use in an almost open source way uh that was quite incredible and ahead of its time um and i think this like sort of play between uh what is me what is the collective and what is it that is unique and ownable versus what is not uh is is quite fascinating i've always been fascinated by that intersection Yeah, that's cool. Just as we wrap up, a lot of the commentary on AI that's negative is that it takes away human agency, human potential gets capped out. Can you just talk a little bit about your view on the potential of every human to be a creative, to be a designer and how AI might perhaps magnify every person, not just the, quote, creatives, where they're in some elite class of artists in some special building, but the ability for every human to create and the ability für every human to design and produce things in the world and where you sit with that right now? I think it's even broader. I think it's as a human in general, pre-AI, post-AI. You have a choice. Do you want to consumer create? do you want to take the easy path or do you want to like climb the mountain and what I'm seeing happen right now a lot is people are letting AI think for them less at Figma but like more just like in my interactions with the world I just see a lot of this at the moment and that's one path you can take but the other one is actually use AI to further your understanding of the world to learn to do things you never would have dared to do before because they were would have taken so much time to learn or it's so hard uh and to really expand like the potential ways that you can like live as a human uh that to me the latter is the interesting part yeah the former like why would i want something else to think for me like my entire life has been about like figuring out how to think and um i don't know i just hope that people use ai to create good and to like go be a force for it rather than just kind of like joining the hive mind everyone can be a maker everyone can be a baker everyone can go do bold things uh it's about willpower and it's about curiosity and if you're curious and you're willing to do the work uh i believe and speak your truth yeah exactly and then i think that you can go do incredible things uh we will probably see a vastly different setup in the future where things that we can't imagine are possible and things we take for granted are no longer in sort of the realm of what humans do every day how exactly that will look I don't think either of us can tell but it is the case that both were under the precipice of great change and nothing hit home for me more than the math drop last night from OpenAI of 700 plus papers on all sorts of very famous problems that was a show of something I had a lot of emotions I don' t know how to process it I thought it was the greatest day of discovery and human history oh i mean factually yes yes and also like something about it was like brilliant and exciting and something about was kind of sad yeah and i i don't know how to articulate the sadness but it felt like we lost something and gained something at the same time i don' t know i lift my head up and i look at the next frontier and i think that the frontiers are brighter and wider and more accessible than they've ever been so i'm pretty excited oh i'm excited too and i think that the world will look amazing and uh i'm an optimist yeah i think there's gonna be a lot of challenges and we'll figure them out yeah uh how exactly and what the challenges will be in their full form we have yet to see but yeah i do think that like math is uh something that somehow has a quality of mystery to it like an unsolved problem uh is it you know is this conjecture true or false how why uh grappling with that mystery is something that is special and uh i i'm both excited for the progress and like all the things will make possible and also like i don't think it's wrong to like mourn the loss of a little mystery right fair enough dylan this has been a great chat should we go have another drink sounds good let's do it thanks man thanks I'm going all in. I'm going all in.