BANCANALYSTS ASSOCIATION OF BOSTON'S ANNUAL BANK CONFERENCE - WELLS FARGO COMPANY

Thanks Gerard. All right, we'll kick off here. I'm pleased to welcome Fernando Rivas, CEO of the Corporate Investment Bank of Wells Fargo, to stage here. Fernando, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. Good to have you in Boston. Maybe just give people a little bit of a background. You've been at Wells two and a half years, almost exactly as I calculated last night, but spent almost 30 years of your career someplace else. Give us a little Bit of your background and what attracted you to Wells and the opportunity at Wells Faro? Well, so I just learned, Gerard said that he's been running this group since 1995, so that's exactly the same time that I started on Wall Street 30 years ago. So 28 and a half years at J.P. Morgan, and I basically had two jobs there. So job number one is I was a fig banker for 30 years, calling on clients, doing transactions. By the way, I owe a huge debt of gratitude to everybody in this room, because especially when I started out, but over the whole course of my career, Like, I didn't know anything about banks when I started, and you all taught me. You didn't no you were teaching me, but you did for 30 years, so thank you. And it was just a terrific learning experience to work with dozens of banks, both globally and in the U.S., on some of the biggest transactions that have shaped the industry over the last 30 years. So half a trillion in transactions. And you learn a lot. And Matt and I were talking about this over breakfast, that you all have been analysts on the outside looking in. I was an analyst both on the Outside looking in, but then also on the inside. And you learn from the great banks. You learn from The Branks that hit a wall, a lot of crisis deals. And you learned decades of experiences in short bits of time in the crisis. And then for about 20 years, I've been running businesses. So I ran the bank team. Then I ran The Fig team for a decade. I ran North America Investment Banking, which was my last job at J.P. Morgan. And again, you learn a lot about building businesses, building teams, culture, risk management, some of the things that you and I talk about, the inputs and the outputs of businesses. So I joined Wells two and a half years ago. It was a very intentional decision. So I had about six months to think about the decade of where I wanted to spend my 50s, hopefully the last stint of my career. and I had lots of conversations. One of the great fortunes and privileges that I had was I had worked with Charlie for 20 years, both as his banker and also as his colleague. About half a dozen of the folks on the operating committee of Wells Fargo, I had either worked with them on transactions or been their colleague before. I had advised Wells Farga on the Wachovia deal back in 2008 so I knew the bank really well and it was a combination of just like a terrific group of people who I knew their competence I knew their commitment to transforming the company I had confidence in their ability to do it and I knew I'd have a blast doing it and then just the scale of the opportunity right it's arguably when you look at our client base our competitive advantages the last ability to build a top corporate investment banking franchise. And I had been there for most of the nine innings of the only bank that arguably had done it from kind of the beginning to getting to top one or two in most things. So I felt I had something to add. No, that's great. I mean, how would you describe the market position today of Wells as CIB? And what gave you the conviction or what gives you the conviction that you can attract clients to the platform and actually continue to build something? Because it's a competitive space. How do you keep building? So it's a super competitive space, and again, given the journey that I had been on in my career, I had competed when I was outside of the top five and competed when I had when I wasn't inside of the top five, and if you take a step back and you look at our franchise today, what do we bring to the game? First off, the CIB, we earn like $5 billion of revenue roughly a quarter, so call it over $20 billion a year, with a ROTC over 15%. So to have that amount of revenue and that amount of returns, you've got to be doing a lot of things really well for lots of clients with a real value proposition. So we start with in the CIB, we've got a great corporate franchise. So we're a top four corporate bank. We've got a trillion of credit commitments out to the corporates that we bank in the corporate investment bank and also the corporates that we bank out of the commercial bank we hold 400 billion of their deposits like we're really important and relevant to lots of companies across the country we've got 37 000 clients the way we think about it between the corporate bank the commercial bank the institutional clients that we bank we've got a really good corporate markets franchise so if you If you think all those companies that we have relationships with, rates, FX, commodities, so that's a great part of our markets franchise. We've got a really good traditional investment grade DCM franchise. We have a leading structured products franchise. So we're top three in structured products, and that includes being top three and all things capital markets, ABS, we're number one in CMBS. So you start with, we've got these great relationships. got a set of foundational capabilities we have part of the franchise that we're leading in and then there's a bunch of the franchises that we are not leading in that it just makes sense to invest and build when you think of the relationships we have what we already do for these companies and what they tell us so one of the most interesting things when I got to Wells Fargo and I started going out and calling on clients and it's a little bit different if they're corporate clients or private capital clients or institutional clients is that the corporate clients, they just really like Wells Fargo. And when we'll talk more about it later, but you've got to put a team in front of them that's competitive. And if you put a Team in front of them, that's you'll win business. And you and I were talking about, you know, some of the teams that I was a part of 20 years ago, when you know we were doing deals at a franchise that wasn't within the top five at the time. And corporate clients, if you have a great platform, which we do, and you have great team, you'll win. The most interesting thing was the institutional clients and the big private capital managers all said the same thing, which is as the buy side and the sell side has consolidated, the needs of the buy-side have gotten way bigger, and they want more choice and they want diversification and they want another scale partner now they want that person to be somebody who can do more with them and like they would like that person for their own selfish and commercial reasons which is like how you build a business right to be wells now that's great and maybe i mean part of the answer is in there but just you know capital it feels like the the tide is rising good in capital markets right now we've had a lot of activity how do you make sure that what you're building is has durable relationship and stickiness it isn't like we're not just picking up the benefit of the tide and then when it goes out we we find that we've got you know we were the last piece of business that then goes with it so there are lots of things that you talk about in business and a lot of things you talk in risk management and I'd say a few things we spent a lot of time talking about risk management in culture and how you build a good business like first off we tell people all the time. Maybe in the NFL or in college football, there's a debate about does offense or defense win championships? Like there's no debate in banking, right? Defense wins championships, like number one. We spend a lot of time thinking about how do you build businesses where you're getting positively selected businesses and you're not getting adversely selected. And what matters there goes back to where I started. What's your competitive advantages? What's Your Value proposition. One of the first things I would do whenever I was a banker advising a client is I would try to dissect their income statement and understand what's the real franchise margin and then what's like the lower quality just risk-taking business that you're taking. And we're always focused on if we're building something, it's because we have clients, we have a right to win, we have competitive advantages. And then, of course, as you would imagine, there is a very rigorous and detailed process as it relates to any loan that we're making, any financing that we're doing, where you have subject matter experts that are deep in the detail. And we're always reminding people there's no deal we need to do. And you all know this because you've been following banks and management teams for decades. A lot of mistakes are made because people feel under pressure. And we're always telling people, we've got really exciting plans. We want to grow. We think we should grow. We don't have to grow, and one of our great benefits is the company makes $80 billion of revenue, about $20 billion after tax a year. We've got a 15% ROTC. We're got lots of ways to get to a 17% to 18% Rotsy, and we have the privilege of not having to do anything. And you're always managing that dynamic of raising expectations and folks like making sure we're optimizing the opportunities that are in front of us, but always setting a very clear tone on risk and client selection and the business that we want to do. That's great. So there's actually a lot in the CIB at Wells. You've got banking, you've got markets, you've Got CRE. So why don't we jump into a few of the individual segments and Talk about banking to start. Maybe just refresh people. You've been there two and a half years. Where did you focus those two and half years in terms of adding talent, adding capabilities? What have you been focused on? And then looking forward, where do you see the opportunity as greatest? So when I got here two and the half years ago, Charlie and Mike and the leadership team and CIB had already set the plans. And they were really good plans. And again, they made sense. And the initial focus of the investment was and has been on banking, but we've also been investing in markets and in CRE as well, which we can talk about. But banking is first and foremost a talent business. And it's who is the team that you've got calling on clients, and it's sector by sector, product by product, subsector by subseector. And I was blown away when I got to Wells with the talent that Tim O'Hara and the banking leadership team had been able to attract. And I'd been hiring bankers and building banking teams for 20 years, so I knew a little bit about it. And over the last four years, we've hired about 140 managing directors into the banking business, so about 30 a year. And it started at the top with a new head of M&A, two new co-heads of equity capital markets, a new head, and one new co-head of leverage finance. It's a new head of tech, new head of healthcare, new ahead of industrials, new had of sponsors, and then building out the teams underneath them. And if you look at our market shares and banking, if you at our revenues and banking if you look at the transactions we're a part of, like you very clearly see the momentum and the proof points along the way. So we're, you know, we're making about a billion and a half more in investment banking fees today than we did several years ago. That is kind of $200 to $400 million in each of the main products, M&A, equity capital markets, leverage finance, investment grade. If you look at the transactions that we're a part of today, like just very different than what Wells would have been doing in the past. So, you know, we were one of the two lead advisors to Union Pacific on the Norfolk Southern deal. We financed Netflix on the acquisition of Warner Brothers, which at the time was the largest commitment one bank had made as part of a $60 billion acquisition finance package. We worked on the Charter-Cox deal. We put together the Schroeder-Naveen deal. If you look at our market shares, it used to be low twos in investment banking wallet share. It's now low fours. And again, if you look at the underlying products, be it M&A, ECM, leverage finance, we're up 50 to 100%. So the like the strategy and banking is working, we see it with the client engagement, we see it in the talent we're able to attract. And it's kind of it has a flywheel, it has momentum to it. And there is a J curve to that business. So like all of the investments we've been making were early innings, and like, we'll continue to pay off, like we've got a long way to go in banking. Great. I mean, one of the things that I think Charlie and Mike have talked about for a long time is these longtime corporate customers. You talked about the corporate relationships that didn't have the Wells Investment Banking products, necessarily. Is there a way to think about how big that opportunity alone is? I don't know if there's a way frame that at all or not. So there's an easy way to frame it, which is banking has fairly good market share and deal logic market share. And if you just look at, you know, and I won't quantify in numbers, but if you just look where we are today in deal logic revenue, and you look at where banks like just four and five are, like, we see a very clear pathway. And again, we don't start off with we want to be number one, number two, or number three. We start off mit who are our clients, what are the needs, what's the business we think we can win, who do we think, we think can hire. If you just map out where four and five are, we think we've got a pretty clear line of sight to get there over the next several years. Great. Right? And then as Charlie says, that's a milestone, not an endpoint, right? If we get there, then let's see how we do better. And I'm sure people are curious. It's been a volatile, perhaps, year between rates, markets. How are you feeling about pipelines going into the year end? Yeah. So I'm always careful about pipelines, having been, again, running banking business and doing budgets and looking at pipelines for a long time. So they're super important, right, because it's a leading indicator of the traction that you're having with clients and the job that your bankers are doing. As you all know, pipelines change very quickly when markets change and the pull-through changes very quickly. But right now, our pipelines are what you would expect them to be, which is we remain in very supportive markets and we're taking market share. So our pipelines aren't all-time highs when you look at them by product, by sector, pretty much across the board. Okay, great. Maybe let's pivot to markets real quick. You've made a lot of investments there as well. Maybe talk about what you've done, how you feel about the product and the coverage that you've got at this point and where you're still building. So the way we think about the markets franchise is we've got a really good corporate markets franchise. And it goes back to the corporate relationships we had, many of which we've had for decades. We've got the trillion of commitments, the $400 billion of deposits. We have those relationships. and we've got really good corporate flow in our rates business, our FX business, our commodities business, also in our equities business because you're doing ASRs and you're doing call spreads. So we start with the foundation of a really good corporate franchise, which can be better. Like all of the investments that we're making in the investment banking franchise will pay dividends in the corporate markets franchise. And like, we're already seeing that just like two weeks ago, we did a swaps restructuring for a big company, you know, where we'll make $20 million, where we had a good corporate banker, we had good rates people, but we didn't have CEO and CFO connectivity. And we do today. We then have, as I said before, a leading structured products franchise. And that goes back to Wells for decades was one of the leading banks and lenders to non bank financials and securitizers. So we're top three in structured products. And that is on the lending side, which is attractive risk return business, as well as on the capital market side, on the primary and on the secondary trading business. We're meaningfully underweight on the institutional side. And what we're looking to do is grow the corporate markets franchise, extend the leadership in structured projects, and build an institutional business that complements the corporate franchise that we have today. And so how do you do that? Because it is competitive and it's hard. And we start with the needs of these clients are really big. The TAM in markets is bigger than the TAM in banking. And what is it that institutional clients care about? And we talked earlier about the fact that there is a very clear need when you talk to them. And you even hear our peers talk about it, right, on their earnings calls, talking about the demand for financing and counterparties in many of these markets is greater than the supply. So thing number one we're doing is by investing in our banking business, we're going to grow the number one thing that institutions care about the most, which is primary allocations. And institutions disproportionately trade with the bank that brought the primary issue. And it makes sense because they know the issue and they know who the investors are, so they're going to be the best liquidity providers in that issue, number one. Number two, as we grow the corporate markets franchise, what do you want in a trading business? You want positively differentiated flow, which you can then use to interact with institutional flow. And again, at that point, you can internalize more. You can be a better and more consistent liquidity provider. And institutions want to trade with people who they know have that positively selected flow. So we're growing primary. We're growing the positively selected flow we have. We're investing in our research franchise, which I'm sure this group here will appreciate. So last year, we were number nine in the Excel rankings. This year, were number five. I know that's an imperfect ranking for lots of reasons. We now have 30 teams that are in the top five. So Mike Mayo, who I see in the room, is no longer our only top ranked analyst, and we love Mike, he does a great job for us, but we want many Mikes in our research franchise. With that comes corporate access, and then we're growing our financing business, and you all have been following this. We've grown over $100 billion in the financing that we're providing institutions. We're only doing that where we can do a lot more with those clients. So we do, in its own right, we like the institutional financing business. On the fixed side in particular and the reverse repo side, a lot of that, while it's very low spread business and we know it has a net interest margin impact, is really good return on capital business because it's low RWA density. It's low risk content. So low spread but really good returns and valued by the clients that you provide it to. And when you provide clients financing, again, back to positively selected flow, the more that you're meaningful to somebody and the more you're doing with them and the more you'RE financing with them, right, the better flow you're going to get from them. And then we are building a prime business, and we're early innings in building a prime business even though we've been in it for a very long time from a company that we bought many years ago. And again, the prime business starts with we're investing in all parts of the ecosystem, financing is part of the planks. Unlike FIC financing, in prime financing, it is lower returns when you start because there is a J curve to it given the fixed cost in that business. And also, it's higher capital intensity when you started in particular because you just have less positions that you can net off against each other. But the view is that as we grow the financing businesses, that's good business in its own right, and it has a flywheel effect on the trading businesses that we're building. And then we're investing in all things, electronic trading, portfolio trading, program trading, algorithmic trading, so that we can trade and provide liquidity with our clients in the ways that they want to interact with us. That's great. I mean, one of the most obvious from the outside is the balance sheet investment you've made in the business. Maybe just talk quickly about, do we need to, are you, is there more? Are we finding efficiencies in the balance sheet from here? Like, do we need to extend more balance sheet? And how do you expect to see the realization of that through the income statement over time? Like, how long does it take to ramp the kind of full return profile of that? So Mike's talked about some of this. So part of it is there was an initial ramp that was faster than, like, we would normally grow it. Because we're like, We had an asset cap for a really long period of time. And the part of the business that was hurt the most by the asset cap was the institutional liquid markets financing business. And the reason for that is pretty much every good loan we wanted to make, we could make, and you could get good returns on the loan side. It is low spread business on the institutional financing side. So in an asset cap world where notional balance sheet is your constraint, you just couldn't do it. But so coming out of it, we actually had a lot of clients who we had shrunk meaningfully with, that we were just kind of getting back to where we were before. So that's number one. Number two, I'll go back to the point I made that we're only going to be doing the business where we like the returns. Some of it will be longer dated, but in its own right, we like to return to the financing business and that we can be doing more with them. And it is, and I was just looking at this yesterday because I knew the question was going to come up, Um, and if you look at the RWA intensity and the on balance sheet intensity of the business, you know, going into next year and beyond, we'll be able to grow gross financing balances at a faster rate than net financing balances. So what's on the balance sheet, because to your point, right, it becomes a more efficient business because you can net an offset as you get bigger and you've got a bigger, um, portfolio. And then like, we are going to write centrally clear treasury repo. So like that's also gonna have an impact as well like that should happen in 27 great Why don't I pause there for a second and open up to the room to see we've covered a lot to see if there any questions from the room Yeah, I think we need a mic there we go it's on its way We're in the front here, thank you avoid adverse selection, that is a key way to win. Can you maybe just elaborate on that? It's been an incredibly benign environment for a while. So what areas are you a bit more cautious of? I talk about it all the time in all areas in a risk-taking business. So you can get adversely selected in many things that you do. And again, it goes back to who are your clients? do we have a right to win this business? Who else? There are all these questions that you ask all the time. Who are the clients? Do we have the right to this business. You're benchmarking out to what are the terms and conditions that other people are doing. How do our terms and condition compare? The way we underwrite, of course, is deal by deal. And we spend a lot of time having a priori views on things. I love checklists, by the way. So I'm a big believer in heat maps and checklists as a management tool. The teams do a lot more detailed work than that on things that are riskier. If we're doing a bridge book for a financial sponsor, if we're doing a block equity deal, if we're doing a big data center financing, on all of those we've put in the disciplines of having very clear checklists and heat maps for what we like and what we don't like before the transaction comes in. And then you underwrite everything to stresses, right? So we have lots of stress scenarios that we run either when we're doing credit underwriting or in the markets business. And you're always looking at your stress exposures and you're trying to think about where we correlated, where we concentrated, where are we exposed? I'm not sure that answered your question, but. So I don't think we've disclosed publicly like an AI cut or an AI view, but look, it was very clear a while ago that this was going to be really big. And so what we did a while ego is we set up a cross-functional team across all of CIB that we have like long-dated, long-tenured experts in all things data centers, just given our leadership in commercial real estate. We've got a great infrastructure and project finance practice we've got a great energy practice we have a great structured products practice and we brought all of those folks together to come up with a very intentional strategy as you look across the hyperscalers the neo clouds the semi complexes the llm companies and like we had projections going out multiple years for what do we think the demand is going to be where are the places that we're going to want to play? What are the limits that we want to put in place? What are The Underwriting Criteria that we Want to Have? And as you would imagine, given the size and the scale of the demands of what's coming in, it's like top three topic at Wells. And Mike and I were talking yesterday about a transaction, and we're looking at it on a weekly basis, doing deep dives all the time, and just thinking about, to your point, sizing really matters. because at the end of the day, this is a really big opportunity. It's an attractive opportunity. At some horizon, the future is unknowable, and your number one protection against that is your limits and just how big you are. All right, I think we've got one in the back there with the mic. Hi, Brent Harnsell. Could you please address the M&A window as it relates to the election results? um so this is more as like back in my days as an m&a banker um look i think there was there very clearly was when this administration came in something that there hadn't been in my 30-year career of like people talked about capital markets windows and but there was very clearly a view of it may be now or never because if you go back to an ftc and a doj the way it was under the Biden administration, which could very easily come back in 28. And then that could be there for four years, could be for eight years, Could be for 12 years. Like there is an opportunity to get something done now that you may never have the opportunity to do. And that was different than in most of my career. And That still exists because the agencies remain under executive control. So I, and, and I think given what just happened in the midterms, like that's going to to come back to the forefront of the conversation. And for folks who are thinking that way, just given how long approval timelines can be, which is very industry and regulatory specific, I think you are going to see transactions this year and in 27 that will be driven by folks thinking there's a real regulatory window. It's just a reality. We got right up here. Hi. My name is . As we think about MD productivity and a fair few highs in the last four years, as you mentioned, how many of those MDs are fully ramped? How much more room is there still to go? And what would that mean for operating leverage in the business going forward? Sure. So when we look at our plans, there's a lot of operating leverage we think we're going to be able to achieve. So I think that's kind of foundational plank number one. When we look at AI and we think about our pyramids, I think everybody believes that you're going to have a different pyramid than you had before. And the tools that we now have and as you all know, because you use them, I mean, it's like every two months they're meaningfully better. So the tools are getting better and our ability to serve as clients with less people is going to be real. Unclear at the senior banker level how much that will be. I think to your point on the senior bankers hires, there is a J curve. And like I always used to talk about the banking business as in we're in the business of growing trees. And so you hire people and there is flywheel to their business and to their franchise and also just to the brand and transactions beget transactions so again if you look at our plans like we have a I've thought and we've got lots of benchmarks for you know what you think the right level of revenue is per managing director and how much M&A and ECM and leveraged finance business they can be winning which will vary by industry and what's available to win in that industry but like we think we've Got Real Upside there and we're gonna and we'll and we to continue to hire like we're not we're not done on the hiring right the going right up here Scott see first TD calm can you talk when you when you talk about growing your thank you chair to you know get to that sort of scale top five sort of player maybe just I think there's broad agreement that you've got just a ton of white space given how undersized you are in banking but you know there's I think perception of a a challenge that to really get to that next leg of fully scale, it could be pretty tough, given just how much market share those guys have. So maybe just if you could elaborate a little on the path to get there, plausibility, whether it can all come organically, et cetera. Yeah, so again, I was part of a place that did it before. And in banking, you want to have a big platform that is credible, where you have capital. And our clients look at Wells Fargo, and it's a really important company to them. So what we need to do is put teams in place that can win relative to the best competition out there, and we can do it. We just need to it in more places. And that is just talent, culture, routines, discipline, quality compounding over time. And the proof points are and the trajectory is there that we can do it. If I look at the folks, like you have had kind of a concentration at the top that has been fairly sticky for a while, and then like a next level down that hasn't been able to crack it. And when I look that, I think there's lots of reasons why, and I think we're gonna do it differently. All right, maybe we'll, you have commercial real estate under your purview as well, so you're busy. You know, we spent the last couple of years, it feels like, kind of de-risking that portfolio from the rate shock that we had and everything else. Maybe just talk about where that is from your perspective, from a risk perspective as rates are moving higher. And then also from, have we reached a point where that portfolio is likely to grow again? Do you see opportunity there, or is this just a tough market given what's going on with the rate backdrop? Yeah, so we're growing in commercial real estate again, which we weren't in, like, for the last few years, post-office, post COVID. We very intentionally slowed down originations. We're now, again, originating at a pace where we're growing the portfolio on a net basis. Commercial real estate is one of those businesses where you talk all the time about what are the terms and conditions in the market what's available do we want to be bigger right at this point in time and right now we're growing it because we like it but again we don't feel like we need to be in that space so if if we don t like it we won't do it to your point that the lost content as we model it and as we see it is has been going down right as we've worked through the office portfolio. What right now when we talk about commercial real estate, it's less about credit. It's just more about spreads and where pricing is. And spreads and pricing are there because it is an attractive asset class. And like there is competition for those assets right now. Given what rates have done, it is a rate sensitive asset class, like as you would imagine, we run all sorts of stresses on our portfolio. Like we did recently do a deep dive right, on a rate shock, like as you would expect. And like the outcome of that analysis is like right now with what we see is that you would see some credit migrations, but not really a meaningful increase in loss content. And as you know, the way that, again, a post-CECL world, the way that you do do your CECL reserves is based on a weighted average, like of a set of scenarios. So we already have some stress scenarios built into our reserving. Great. And, you know, we talked about office. Office has been the topic for a while, especially kind of downtown office. Just any other areas that you see potential stress in or anything that looks overbuilt or any areas of concern? I mean, there's like some things that, you Know, we talk about and we do like we had a conversation a few months ago about, you hotels in the portfolio that were you know built ten years ago that people didn't invest in during kovat and like you see a little bit of stress there yeah right so like there's like you're always looking through like what are you learning what are seeing in the port folio but like nothing that like would rise to a big trend at this point okay more idiosyncratic all right next maybe we'll go to deposits you've had a lot of success after they asked to get bringing deposits on. It's harder to tell, given where your starting point was, you've brought a bunch on. How aggressively do you feel like you have to price to bring those deposits on? How does the deposit market feel to you competitively? DAVID LEVINSON- So we have had a lot of success in growing deposits. And it's a combination of, like, we were sub-optimized in deposits, just like we were sub optimized in investment banking. And a lot of it is basic blocking and tackling of, you know, we had a corporate bank and an investment bank that was together. We separated the two so that you could have a laser focus and a group of people that were clearly accountable in corporate banking. Just like we've hired talent into investment banking, we started hiring talent into corporate banking, so we've got two great leaders of our corporate banking business, one of whom is longtime legacy Wells Fargo, one of whom is somebody who was my long-term partner for years who's just terrific and has brought a level of just like a different way of thinking about things playbooks we've upped our game in terms of the client targeting that we do with much richer data sets of clearly understanding the business that clients have that's away from us that we can win we've increased the expectation of the sales force in terms of having very granular targets that we're expecting them to hit for deposits we've increased the discipline and the routines around our capital allocation so you know like as like most places do we've got a capital allocation committee every loan that comes in that goes through a process and what are the returns and what's the wallet and it's like not just do you meet whatever return threshold you have it's Like, what is the optimal amount of business that we aspirationally should be winning here? And do we have plans to win it? And what you're seeing is, like, all of those things, they just multiply, right? So better leadership, better routines, better targeting, higher aspirations, better tracking, like – and just, like going at it. And we look at it, like every week, every month. And the teams do it at a much more detailed level. And, like it works. And does that include bringing in some of the lower-cost deposits as well? Is there an opportunity still with your customer base to attract more of those? So it's clearly easier to do it with the interest-bearing deposits. And bringing in lower-cost deposits is all about selling more payments business and more fee business, which has a longer lead time. But our sales pipelines are growing. and you know that business is you know you all know mike really well who's like unbelievably competent and one of the happier days for me is when like charlie asked mike to run that business for us and he's got a whole bunch of investments that he's making in that business that like we're going to have the benefit of you know getting those products enabled great we've got a minute left fernando maybe just leave you with an opportunity what do you want people to take away from the conversation about the opportunity uh for your business at wells and wells broadly Look, we're excited about the business that we're building. We spend a lot of time, all of the questions that you all ask are good and reasonable questions and questions that we ask ourselves all the time, which is, let's make sure we're building the right business the right way with our clients based on our competitive advantages in a very disciplined way, in a Very Risk Mindful way, pace the right way. And we're building this for the next five and 10 and 20 years. And we're looking to quality compound, which doesn't mean that we don't have a sense of urgency and accountability, but like it's a long-term mindset, which is the way I think you would want us to think about it. Great. All right. Appreciate you having, appreciate you being here and having you on stage. Thanks for the time. Great. And again, thank you all of you.